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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
814
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
814
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Why would you even make this? ScR > TAR it's been this way since the TAR was nerfed.
To show why.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
814
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Posted - 2014.09.02 23:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:You sound way different on Comms.
Comms in game bring out my Cajun rage.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
817
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Does this mean you'll be doing one for the Burst AR v CR?
I'd have to use them quite a bit first. I do use the CR, but I've never been a fan of the burst AR, haven't tried it since it was a 6 round burst weapon. The TAC was my favorite back when we used to have TV cameras instead of scopes.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
824
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Posted - 2014.09.03 11:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thanks, have you taken a look at the proposal in the Scrambler thread in I&F forums? This was a really good video, and clearly laid out the problems of the Tac AR and the "efficiency" of the Scrambler, more than my numbers could.
I made this video for that thread. I posted it there first, but it was lost in the rest of the discussion.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
839
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Posted - 2014.09.03 15:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion.
No, I'd say it's a fair point. I'll do 3 some times 4 engagements with the SCR before taking the time to reload. If I unload 16 shots, back off, I only need to stall for a second before firing another 4 rounds, stall again, fire another 2, ect. Think of the SCR as having its primary mag ammo, then 3 mags worth of reserve ammo in the mag that trickles in. With the TAC, if I fire off 16 rounds, I need to reload.
Also shouldn't be overlooked is that I can sprint while my SCR is cooling down (not overheated) which makes it easier to engage and disengage in and out of cover as appose to the only walk, or jump options when reloading a TAC. In short, I prefer the options I have with DPS management with the SCR over the TAC, it's just a lot more to keep in mind and adds to the actual skill required to use the weapon, but in practice works very well.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
839
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Posted - 2014.09.03 15:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jace Kaisar wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:This video is also posted in the F&D under the Scrambler sticky post. Things covered in this comentary video: -Stats, Cost, and Skill of the TAC vs the SCR. -TAC in action showing it shining in Optimal and falling on it's ass in <30 meters (Some slowmo comparison) -SCR in action showing it shining in all ranges (Also with slow motion comparison) -Outside of game video showing both riflers firing at a near consistent 480 rounds per min using a metronome set at 120bpm with 16th note subdivisions -Slow motion of the TAC misfiring while well under 500 RPM (Bug?) and what I fear would happen if the ROF gets lowered to much on the SCR -EXTREME dispersion difference in both hip fire and ADS between the two (side by side using a commando firing at a wall) -A bad ass drummer in the background. (seriously, this dude is remarkable) And for all those claiming that more than 6 trigger pulls per second controlled is not possible, wtf is wrong with you? Eat some Wheaties or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOXdZfHeN8&feature=youtu.be I spied DJ Grammer in that video.
Yea he's good. Kills me often. He makes the min assault work for sure.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
839
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Posted - 2014.09.03 15:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Bethhy wrote:Vell0cet wrote:There's an issue in the debate that is relevant, and you're kind of the perfect person to address it. That's how overheat balances the ScR. In my experience, there are 2 circumstances with the ScR. The first is you accept that you're going to overheat and want to pump out as much damage as possible (maybe because you have range and cover/support nearby--or you REALLY want to get the kill on someone). This is easy to test just spamming the R1 until overheat. The second is when you're "holding back" because you're being conscientious of overheat. It would be really interesting to see a video where you went back through your firefights where you were consciously avoiding overheating and compare that to the actual DPS of what would be possible with max DPS minus 1 shot. In other words, when players "hold back" to prevent overheating, what percent of their DPS are they giving up?
This is a big part of what makes the ScR a skill shot weapon. You're probably on the upper end of that curve, getting the most out of it. When one gun has 18 bullet clips and requires 2x to 3x more reloading to stay relevant in killing potential... The overheat function is moot in comparison. It's not moot at all. They are 2 different mechanics, and it's important to understand how they both affect actual gameplay. Yes the reload on the TAC is important to its balance, but you can always pump out the max DPS without trying to hold back to manage heat. When you finish your clip and start reloading, you can always switch to your sidearm, whereas when you overheat, you're taking damage and a sitting duck for a few seconds. Players do hold back to prevent overheat, and knowing how much DPS they miss out on by doing so in practice (not just on paper) is valuable and can only help inform the discussion. No, I'd say it's a fair point. I'll do 3 some times 4 engagements with the SCR before taking the time to reload. If I unload 16 shots, back off, I only need to stall for a second before firing another 4 rounds, stall again, fire another 2, ect. Think of the SCR as having its primary mag ammo, then 3 mags worth of reserve ammo in the mag that trickles in. With the TAC, if I fire off 16 rounds, I need to reload. Also shouldn't be overlooked is that I can sprint while my SCR is cooling down (not overheated) which makes it easier to engage and disengage in and out of cover as appose to the only walk, or jump options when reloading a TAC. In short, I prefer the options I have with DPS management with the SCR over the TAC, it's just a lot more to keep in mind and adds to the actual skill required to use the weapon, but in practice works very well. He's saying it's moot, as In totally irrelevant to the conversation. I think all aspects are important to consider, including the ones you mention about being able to sprint while cooling down, etc. It's not about which is better, it's about trying to capture as much relevant data to have an informed discussion. How much DPS do you think you miss out on when you're managing heat? I'm not a great player, and it's probably around 20% less than if I were spamming R1 as fast as I could. For example if I were going against a PRO armor heavy with reps, and I knew I had to manage heat carefully. I just think it would be interesting to see this broken down more, like you did with the fire rates.
You're right, I didn't mean I agree with the point about over heat being moot, just that IMO well managed heat up can be applied better than finite rounds with forced reload. I'll try to crunch some math but my thoughts would be better shown in a graph that is DPS vs the 2 over the course of 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, up to say 10 seconds. With the TAC just firing then reloading vs the SCR firing up to but not overheat and trickle shots after that staying just below overheat. This data could be used to make the argument that the TAC could use more rounds in its mag maybe?
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
846
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Posted - 2014.09.03 20:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:You're right, I didn't mean I agree with the point about over heat being moot, just that IMO well managed heat up can be applied better than finite rounds with forced reload. I'll try to crunch some math but my thoughts would be better shown in a graph that is DPS vs the 2 over the course of 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, up to say 10 seconds. With the TAC just firing then reloading vs the SCR firing up to but not overheat and trickle shots after that staying just below overheat. This data could be used to make the argument that the TAC could use more rounds in its mag maybe? Sorry I misread your comment. A graph would be cool, but be sure to base it on actual testing, because in practice, most ScR users don't manage to stop right at 99% heat every time. Usually is much less than that if they're being cautious. I think your video clearly showed that the tac AR needs love. Your earlier suggestion of increased accuracy and smooth RoF would help immensely. It may need a few more rounds in the mag as well. I'd like to see all weapons be viable/competitive.
Ok, so crunching some numbers and doing some test has led me to, damn this is a hard question to consider.
For raw numbers I evened a few things out that made the math a little easier because of the amount of variables involved.
First, this math assumes 70hp per shot (even though the base of the TAC has a higher base
Second, assumed 480 rpm RoF on both because that is what I can do and I've seen very few (only |--Shaze--| so far) prove they can get above 480 consistent enough to do it for a full 2 seconds. Plus 480 is 120bpm and divides into seconds well (8 shots per second)
Third, to make the amount of damage per second and min level better or in even seconds, I assumed reload 2 skill applied. This is because I want to say 16 shots per 2 seconds on both, but the TAC has 18 shots, so 2 additional shots at the same RoF would add 1/4 of a second. Knocking the reload time of the TAC from 3 seconds to 2.82 seconds makes the time between shooting mags 5 seconds even. So 18 shots every 5 seconds or so.
Forth, cool down assumes operation 5 on the SCR, which takes total cool down from 6 seconds to 4.5 seconds.
Here are the numbers.
SCR theoretical DPS Average using 70 hp per shot. At 480 rpm
16 shots in 2 seconds
Reload 2.5 seconds
Pause for 2 seconds (remaining cool down)
rince repeat
16 shots every 6.5 seconds = 1120
147 shots per min
10,338 hp per min
173 hp average per second over a full minute
TAC theoretical DPS Average using 70 hp per shot. At 480
18 shots in 2.12 second
2.82 second reload 2 done to give average of 18 shots per 5 seconds.
18 shots every 5 seconds = 1260
216 shots per min
15,120 hp per min
252 hp average per second
Now what is impossible to account for is the fact that I can fire for 2 seconds with the SCR, wait for 1.5 to 2 seconds and get 4 to 8 additional shots off before the TAC is finished reloading. If we were to both survive the initial 'mag' of fire, I would have the advantage on the follow up. I could also fire 16 and press and hold one more time, and fire a full charge shot as my 17th shot to deal the final blow (though I would have to wait a little over 3 seconds to avoid over heat). But theoretically by backloading my chargeshot I could deal an additional 175 hp (it's 2.5 multiplier right?) while he is reloading.
Some other things I found when testing different tempos or rhythm divisions that may interest some SCR users.
-Did you know the lighter you press R1, the more shots you can get out? Makes since after thinking about it, because the shot is a press release, if you press hard, you've pressed longer, a slight tap allows more cool down time between shots. I noticed this when trying to find the perfect timing for continuous fire. Pressing the button as I normally do, I was able to fire all 45 rounds at a tempo of 69bpm using 8th notes. By pressing and releasing the button as lightly as possible I was able to get this up to 84 bpm and fire all 45 rounds consecutively without over heating!
-Rolling 8th note triplets overheated 2 shots less than 16th notes, so only able to get out 14 rounds without overheating, but overheated about half a second later. 8th note triplets at 120bpm translates to about 360 rpm. So if you are a player that is only managing a RoF of 360, you are 2 rounds short of what someone that can go 480. At then end of the day I guess this one was obvious, but seeing it kind of hit home with the argument of heat per round instead of heat per second. Us fast figure guys have what could amount to a 200+HP per engagement advantage if you take into account prof and damage mods over a player with equal SP and gear but no Wheaties for breakfast.
-Quick burst followed by a long pause within the same second will allow for more shots over time. This one is a little harder to explain with out explaining a few core rhythms, but I will try. A 'Triplet' is three evenly spaced beats in the place of 2. A lesson 25 is similar, but the three notes are played faster up front leaving a longer pause before playing the next set. (it's 2 16th notes followed by an 8th note)
So lets say this represents an 8th note triplet followed by a 1/4note rest - .| .| .| }
And lets say this represents a lesson 25 followed by a 1/4 note rest - ,|,| ,| }
Rolling triplets in that pattern for the duration of the mag will net you 36 shots before overheat
Rolling lesson 25s in that pattern for the duration of the mag will net you 39 shots before overheat.
The lesson here is that the quicker the burst, the faster the cool down, though we are really only talking fractions of a second better.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
850
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Posted - 2014.09.03 21:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Arcturis Vanguard wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I think if anything this shows how the ScR needs to be more like the TACAR.
Poorer hipfire
Greater Kick
Slightly Slower ROF
The TACAR performed as it should do, inside the range it's expected, while the ScR performs in every range.
This needs to be fixed. So your wish would be that the scrambler become a shell and utterly useless compared to the mainstream use of rail rifles and combat rifles... No wonder why this games isn't going well...too much help from individuals who know nothing and add nothing for proper balance and then ccp caters to them... No I wish the ScR to have preferred range where it works and ranges where ot doesn't just like the AR and CR. I also want the RR to have a similar treatment so that all 4 rifles have 4 unique optimals. I then want all 4 rifles to get all 4 variations and to available from Lvl 2 operation. That's what I want.
I've tried imagining how your second want would work. Maybe you can elaborate? Help me fill in the blanks
Rifle
Simi auto - longest range - worst CQ
Breach - sits where, here? Or should this weapon fill the roll of an LMG and be high power, long Range, full auto, large magazine but **** for accuracy?
Burst - mid to long
Auto - short to mid
With this model would no varient cross over another variants teritory? So the RR would then need to be out ranged by 4 rifles correct?
HMG
Sidearms
Pistols - shorter than Auto ARs
SMGs - shorter than pistols?
SGs - shorter than SMGs
Now what should be the optimal, effective, useless ranges for each of these?
Then what do you say to players that like me that exist in every FPS out there that prefer high power, highly accurate, simi auto weapons that fire as fast as I can pull the trigger? "Sorry you don't get to play in CQC with your preferred play style"
This arguement isn't new to dust, in every FPS there is a rifle class that a certain type of gamer drifts to because it has the longest range, best stopping power, and highest accuracy but the trade of is you have to pull the trigger for every shot. And in every FPS there are players that hate it.
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